I get the impression many GPUgrid crunchers would like to try Linux but are turned off by reports from those who have tried and either gave up or failed. What are the stumbling blocks? How could the whole process of installing Linux and BOINC and setting it up to crunch GPUgrid be made easier? Is it simply installing the OS itself? Is it installing BOINC? Is it the NVIDIA drivers? Let's discuss it and see if I and some of the other Linux users here can provide some scripts or packages that automate some of the harder parts.

____________
BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

I have no idea what is so hard on Linux, but I've been on Linux since 2001 and I'm very familiar with it and a terminal doesn't scare me away. I guess this is the most scary part for newcomers. They don't know Linux/UNIX commands so they don't know what to enter in a terminal and it takes (lots) time to Google, read and then enter the commands

That said, installing BOINC on Linux is as easy as entering a few commands (or using a GUI interface to install packages) in a terminal. Most distro's package BOINC so people can easily install it.

In case one needs to compile BOINC, I've written on the Team Belgium forum how to do that. My experience is compiling on openSUSE but it should be the same on other distro's too. http://teambelgium.net:8080/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=18
____________

Team Belgium

I tried GPUGrid about a year ago on Linux. It went fine for awhile; then I started getting lots of segfaults. Nobody seemed to be fixing the problem, so I left. This year WUs seem to be doing much better.

I've heard SMXI (and SGFXI) may be good driver install scripts, but I haven't tried them.

I have no idea what is so hard on Linux, but I've been on Linux since 2001 and I'm very familiar with it and a terminal doesn't scare me away. I guess this is the most scary part for newcomers. They don't know Linux/UNIX commands so they don't know what to enter in a terminal and it takes (lots) time to Google, read and then enter the commands

That said, installing BOINC on Linux is as easy as entering a few commands (or using a GUI interface to install packages) in a terminal. Most distro's package BOINC so people can easily install it.

In case one needs to compile BOINC, I've written on the Team Belgium forum how to do that. My experience is compiling on openSUSE but it should be the same on other distro's too. http://teambelgium.net:8080/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=18

I tried GPUGrid about a year ago on Linux. It went fine for awhile; then I started getting lots of segfaults. Nobody seemed to be fixing the problem, so I left. This year WUs seem to be doing much better.

I've heard SMXI (and SGFXI) may be good driver install scripts, but I haven't tried them.

Dagorath, I don't know what's possible, since i've never learned programming, but a GPUGrid/BOINC distro sounds like a really good idea. If it was possible to have a web interface somehow, similar to linux firewalls and NAS distros, in the way you can point and click and select what to do, then that would be awesome.

But again, i've no idea if this is at all possible with BOINC. If it is, one could have a headless box, and still be able to manage the box without hassle of logging in via terminal etc. This I think is one way to make it very simple for non-experienced linux users. Still, they would need to install it first of course, but installing a basic linux distro, like Ubuntu for instance, now adays can be very simple.

I use linux myself, and recently installed the newest nvidia drivers on my boxes, and it was quite a hassle in the way that the 'nouveau' drivers as it were, wouldn't get disabled until i wrote some lines in grub.cfg, which is what could really turn off new users. It required some research and hairpulling, since the Nvidia install script could not do this automatically.

How about a list of what crunchers really need from Linux and then figure out how to approach each aspect. I think clear instruction is more important - scripts and GUI can come later.

Dagorath, I don't know what's possible, since i've never learned programming, but a GPUGrid/BOINC distro sounds like a really good idea. If it was possible to have a web interface somehow, similar to linux firewalls and NAS distros, in the way you can point and click and select what to do, then that would be awesome.

But again, i've no idea if this is at all possible with BOINC. If it is, one could have a headless box, and still be able to manage the box without hassle of logging in via terminal etc. This I think is one way to make it very simple for non-experienced linux users. Still, they would need to install it first of course, but installing a basic linux distro, like Ubuntu for instance, now adays can be very simple.

I use linux myself, and recently installed the newest nvidia drivers on my boxes, and it was quite a hassle in the way that the 'nouveau' drivers as it were, wouldn't get disabled until i wrote some lines in grub.cfg, which is what could really turn off new users. It required some research and hairpulling, since the Nvidia install script could not do this automatically.

How about a list of what crunchers really need from Linux and then figure out how to approach each aspect. I think clear instruction is more important - scripts and GUI can come later.

- We are all on the same team so let's try to stay focused on the technology and show each other some respect. Quit calling me a newbie and talking about how I've failed and given up, how I don't already know things you find easy, what I find daunting and what scares me. All that's nothing but blowing smoke and frankly one of the biggest turnoffs I've encountered about Linux so far.

Please take a step back and keep the focus on the technology.

I have no idea what is so hard on Linux, but I've been on Linux since 2001 and I'm very familiar with it and a terminal doesn't scare me away. I guess this is the most scary part for newcomers. They don't know Linux/UNIX commands so they don't know what to enter in a terminal and it takes (lots) time to Google, read and then enter the commands

Terminal usage and CLI are daunting. I would like to engineer something that requires little or no terminal usage for installing BOINC, the shared libs BOINC requires and the NVIDIA drivers. Ideally they install Linux, allow it to install the updates then download a script they simply click on. The script checks the system's resources and installs the recommended BOINC and the recommended NVIDIA drivers. The script could have a GUI, a curses interface or plain CLI. The script would adjust all the permissions and take care of all the niggling details.

Even more convenient for newbies would be to derive a new Linux distro that installs everything required for BOINC and GPUgrid crunching when the OS installs. It would also have a daemon that checks for BOINC and NVIDIA driver updates, informs the user updates are available and installs them if and when the user wants them.

What crunchers need is to get up and crunching quickly and easily with a minimum of decision making and command typing. They don't want their RAC to decay while they're messing around learning about Linux permissions and learning to check what they've typed on the command line and waiting for their online helper to realize he spelled the command wrong or missed a vital space character when he posted the command the newbie needs to get BOINC running. Been there, done that, ain't going through that again.

I think the solution is a script that sets it all up. The script is limited in scope to just one distro to keep it simple and it gets tested thoroughly before it's released. After the newbie is up and running and crunching he does a complete backup so he can restore everything easily and then and only then is he ready to learn the inner workings of Linux, the CLI and whatnot.

Even more convenient for newbies would be to derive a new Linux distro that installs everything required for BOINC and GPUgrid crunching when the OS installs. It would also have a daemon that checks for BOINC and NVIDIA driver updates, informs the user updates are available and installs them if and when the user wants them.

I think this would end up being too time consuming to keep updated.

For instance use Ubuntu LT and make a package that the user can choose from a list such as if he has an Nvidia or AMD gpu, and installs the proper drivers.

Then Boinc runs and the person goes thru the process of setting up the project, and it looks similar enough to the Windows version that they can just get Boinc up and crunching asap. All of this with very little input from the user and no command line stuff.

Ubuntu LT is JUST an example, it really doesn't matter as whatever works on most Intel and AMD cpu machines is what's needed. Windows is he!!bent on the licensing aspects and way too many people are getting frustrated and would like to move away and have heard about Linux

but it is just too daunting if you haven't done it before, or in awhile. Sure you can install Linux and be cpu crunching in no time, but gpu crunching is a whole other matter and sometimes you even need to put in delays etc to make it work. Then other times it won't automatically start back up again after a pc restart, you click the X and the thing shuts down unlike in Windows where it minimizes, etc, etc. In short all kinds of differences between the two OS's is the problem in getting people to switch and just crunch.

I don't need a machine that does dvd recording or whatever, I just need a setup that can be expanded to do that later on if I wish, but gets me up and crunching asap.

• A PXE boot setup/configuration wizard that helps those with BOINC farms setup their farm so that it needs only 1 disk. All the crunch boxes boot off that disk and use it for storage. It makes it easy(er) to configure BOINC for a number of different machines and it wears out only 1 disk instead of several.
  
  
• Sometimes tasks get stuck and will run forever until they're aborted in spite of safeguards in BOINC. Why not have a service that watches for stuck tasks and either aborts them or suspends them, notifies the user, etc.
  
  
• Some projects, CPDN for example, have tasks that run for weeks. How about a service that automatically backs up those tasks and restores them if they crash before completion?
  
  
• If you crunch several different projects it can be a bit of a chore to go to each project's website and check if your results are verifying. It would be nice to have a service that does that for you once a day, every other day or whatever and reports how many of your results failed for each project you crunch. It could even suspend any project for which you receive more than say 3 failed verifications in a row or more than say 10 per week.
  
  
• How about a service that tracks exactly how much time BOINC gives to each of your projects and creates pie charts you can use to see if the scheduler is respecting your share allocations?
  
  
• How about an app that analyses your system and BOINC configuration once in a while to see if you've got any obvious configuration errors?
  
  

____________
BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

I've never had those kinds of problems with Linux but then I don't use a USB soundcard, second monitor, screensaver (wtf for), etc., and I doubt most users do. Also, I've heard similar reports about Windows and OSX. Myself, I find Ubuntu far more stable than Windows ever was. As for intuitive... well, intuitive is a mindset. Now that I'm used to Ubuntu I find Windows incredibly non-intuitive and a real PITA to do anything with. I hate it and avoid it as much as possible.

If Windows is working for you and you don't mind paying for upgrades then stick with it. If it's not working for you then give Linux a shot, that's all I'm saying. If your GPUs aren't running as well as they could and it's because of Windows' driver model then consider Linux.

Sometimes I think every OS sucks even Linux and that if one could somehow quantify how much each one sucks you'd find they all suck about the same amount and the only difference is they suck in different ways or at different frequency. However, if I'm going to be stuck with an OS that sucks then I'll pick the one I don't have to pay for and the one that annoys me the least. If what skgivens says about Microsoft using Linux server in their data centre(s) is true then apparently Microsoft feels somewhat the way I do about the matter.

For the average user whose activities are restricted to email, live chat, skype, web surfing, collecting and organizing music and photos, scanning photos, watching videos and other run of the mill activities I truly believe Linux is every bit as good as Windows and OSX if not better, that's it's more stable and just as intuitive after you've used it for a while. And at a far lower cost.

I also know people who use it in commercial enterprise settings for drafting, engineering, website development and SCADA and they say they'll never go back to Windows.

____________
BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

I have been using Linux for quite a few years now. I still find that they are the most counter-intuitive OS (compared to Windows and OSX) with the highest learning curve and the highest instability.

Don't misunderstand me, I love working in Linux and cannot imagine working in Windows.

BUT I have never managed to crash Windows as badly as Linux and so frequently. Here's a list of my favorites:

Try installing a nice screensaver? Reboot and you are back to console without a clue on how to boot into gnome because your x-server configuration got fucked up.
Try installing the ATI drivers for your graphics card manually (not from a repo)? Reboot - graphics are all fucked up and there is no Add/Remove Programs where you can find the drivers to uninstall them.
Connect my USB sound card? Machine freezes requiring reboot.
Second hard drive dead? Can't reboot into gnome, have to fix from command line.
Right click on Nvidia manager panel icon to configure second monitor? Crash machine.

No matter if these are all problems due to 3rd party drivers or whatever and that you can google the solutions or not install stuff outside the package manager etc. Windows is simply more stable for an end-user perspective and doesn't require you to learn all of its internal workings. For example, why would any user need to know where the hell the Xorg config file is stored to restore the backup or that he even has to do that to get back to a human user interface.

So to not cause misunderstandings: I would hate to have to work in Windows especially for research but I would never personally recommend anyone who is not a computer scientist to install linux (unless you don't give them root access, in which case they cannot do anything or fuck up anything).

Obvious exception is if you are getting really serious into the crunching business, in which case it might make sense to learn some Linux.

See that's another reason for creating Crunchuntu. I could trim it down to something leaner than Ubuntu, eliminate services that most crunchers will never use, install services that crunchers really could use, etc. It would retain the ability to install all the non-BOINC related applications and services later, if the user wants them.

Examples of BOINC related services/apps that could be auto installed and configured in Crunchuntu:

• A PXE boot setup/configuration wizard that helps those with BOINC farms setup their farm so that it needs only 1 disk. All the crunch boxes boot off that disk and use it for storage. It makes it easy(er) to configure BOINC for a number of different machines and it wears out only 1 disk instead of several.
  
  
• Sometimes tasks get stuck and will run forever until they're aborted in spite of safeguards in BOINC. Why not have a service that watches for stuck tasks and either aborts them or suspends them, notifies the user, etc.
  
  
• Some projects, CPDN for example, have tasks that run for weeks. How about a service that automatically backs up those tasks and restores them if they crash before completion?
  
  
• If you crunch several different projects it can be a bit of a chore to go to each project's website and check if your results are verifying. It would be nice to have a service that does that for you once a day, every other day or whatever and reports how many of your results failed for each project you crunch. It could even suspend any project for which you receive more than say 3 failed verifications in a row or more than say 10 per week.
  
  
• How about a service that tracks exactly how much time BOINC gives to each of your projects and creates pie charts you can use to see if the scheduler is respecting your share allocations?
  
  
• How about an app that analyses your system and BOINC configuration once in a while to see if you've got any obvious configuration errors?
  
  

What are the stumbling blocks?

You have to learn what Root, Home and Swap directories are before you can even install it, and guess what size they should be; not a problem in Windows.

You next find out that you can't access the BOINC folder to install the files for remote viewing of BOINCTasks until you Take Ownership, which is not a problem in Windows. And of course you are stuck with whatever version of BOINC they give you (7.2.7) unless you want to try and figure out how to install the latest version yourself. Windows makes it trivially easy to install BOINC, or anything else for that matter.

Now for the good part. I need a remote desktop control program, so tried TightVNC, which works fine on my Windows machines. But using either the TightVNC or VNC server under Mint, and the Linux machine crashes as soon as I try to access it over the LAN. It is some sort of known bug, but don't see a solution applicable to me. Maybe it will be fixed in the next version, whenever that is.

But at least BOINC works properly running WCG/MCM on the CPU, which was the first test (well except when VNC crashed, which errored out those work units).

However, to run my GTX 660s for GPUGrid, I need to reduce the number of CPU cores used for WCG. But I now find that I can't change the percentage of processors in use (or any other BOINC preference), probably because of the above-noted change in ownership, but I really don't have the enthusiasm to find out. It won't really be a problem, since I will be replacing Linux as soon as my Windows disc arrives.

Addendum: None of the usual utilities (GPU-Z, etc.) for measuring CPU and GPU temperature are available, and the Linux equivalents are hard to find and install; a lot of them need to be run from the command line, and aren't very convenient to use. (Even finding programs in the start list, or whatever they call it in Mint, is not as easy as it is in Windows.)

I think Linux is fine if you use it in your work, but hopeless for home use. Bill Gates need not worry about his MS stock, unless they do themselves in by Win8.

I'M IN where can I download it?!!!!!

I think Linux is fine if you use it in your work, but hopeless for home use. Bill Gates need not worry about his MS stock, unless they do themselves in by Win8.

This is the problem with most people. They try out something totally different and new to them, see it doesn't work like the thing they're used to, and get discouraged and go back to their familiar stuff.

What are the stumbling blocks?

Curious you should ask.

Sorry to hear your GPU will continue to perform poorly on Win8.

This is the problem with most people. They try out something totally different and new to them, see it doesn't work like the thing they're used to, and get discouraged and go back to their familiar stuff.

I was using the vi editor under Unix before most people on this forum were born, and dearly hoped never to see it again. I think I will keep it that way.

But as with most such discussions, after asking why Bill Gates is a billionaire rather than the developers of Linux, the partisans ignore the results. I would not expect anything less.

Partisan: lemming speak, name for anybody they don't like

This is the problem with most people. They try out something totally different and new to them, see it doesn't work like the thing they're used to, and get discouraged and go back to their familiar stuff.

I was using the vi editor under Unix before most people on this forum were born, and dearly hoped never to see it again. I think I will keep it that way.

But as with most such discussions, after asking why Bill Gates is a billionaire rather than the developers of Linux, the partisans ignore the results. I would not expect anything less.

This is the problem with most people. They try out something totally different and new to them, see it doesn't work like the thing they're used to, and get discouraged and go back to their familiar stuff.

I was using the vi editor under Unix before most people on this forum were born, and dearly hoped never to see it again. I think I will keep it that way.

But as with most such discussions, after asking why Bill Gates is a billionaire rather than the developers of Linux, the partisans ignore the results. I would not expect anything less.

LOL? This is your reply. I tried software X many years ago, I didn't like Software X for OS Y, so all software made for OS Y must be equally bad, including the OS Y itself. You might wanna look up logical fallacies. I'm sure yours classifies as one

If my mom can learn to use Linux in a week, knowing how my mom thinks and acts, I'm sure many more people will have no problem learning it too. It's just that they lack some things that prevents them, like little time, lazy, no interest, busy with other stuff, etc

In reply to your partitioning issue, the reason people don't know how to do it, is because Windows is pre-installed on PCs. 90% of people buy PCs with it already functioning so they don't need to bother or learn how to do it. If you need to install Windows yourself, Windows itself already makes a sane default that you just need to accept. Guess what? Most if not all Linux installers do the same. Regular people don't install Windows. They are happy if all is set up and they can use it. If something goes back and they can't fix it, the PC shop will do it for a small fee. This is what I call "dumbing down" people

Personally, I'm very thankful UNIX and Linux exist. Without them, I would never have learned how to program, set up servers, write websites, automate tasks and let the computer work for me without me looking, and even get into crunching (which is thanks to Linux).

Anyways, I'm not trying to convince you here. Not ever trying to change your mind. Just don't make assumptions based on very limited experiences and throw out statements like "I didn't like X so X must be bad for others too as I'll never recommend it".

In response to Bill Gates. Guess what? Gates didn't got rich from writing Windows himself. He stole and built on already existing, often raw, technology. This in combination with his genius-like, business-centric mind is what got him the money.

Sorry to hear your GPU will continue to perform poorly on Win8.

Actually, I will be trying XP, if that will work on a Haswell machine. I already have one GTX 660 on XP that is working faster than Win7 (especially with the beta drivers), and I doubt that Linux offers any advantage over XP.

Speaking of which, though I didn't mention it above as it is not relevant to GPUGrid, I was quite surprised to find that Linux runs the WCG/MCM more slowly on the CPU than does Win7.

And the lack of hardware monitoring tools is another reason to get away from Linux.

If you like it, have fun.

It looks like you have given up on performance and ease of use, and are resorting to drinking habits. Let us know what you come up with.

This is the problem with most people. They try out something totally different and new to them, see it doesn't work like the thing they're used to, and get discouraged and go back to their familiar stuff.

I was using the vi editor under Unix before most people on this forum were born, and dearly hoped never to see it again. I think I will keep it that way.

But as with most such discussions, after asking why Bill Gates is a billionaire rather than the developers of Linux, the partisans ignore the results. I would not expect anything less.

LOL? This is your reply. I tried software X many years ago, I didn't like Software X for OS Y, so all software made for OS Y must be equally bad, including the OS Y itself. You might wanna look up logical fallacies. I'm sure yours classifies as one

If my mom can learn to use Linux in a week, knowing how my mom thinks and acts, I'm sure many more people will have no problem learning it too. It's just that they lack some things that prevents them, like little time, lazy, no interest, busy with other stuff, etc

In reply to your partitioning issue, the reason people don't know how to do it, is because Windows is pre-installed on PCs. 90% of people buy PCs with it already functioning so they don't need to bother or learn how to do it. If you need to install Windows yourself, Windows itself already makes a sane default that you just need to accept. Guess what? Most if not all Linux installers do the same. Regular people don't install Windows. They are happy if all is set up and they can use it. If something goes back and they can't fix it, the PC shop will do it for a small fee. This is what I call "dumbing down" people

Personally, I'm very thankful UNIX and Linux exist. Without them, I would never have learned how to program, set up servers, write websites, automate tasks and let the computer work for me without me looking, and even get into crunching (which is thanks to Linux).

Anyways, I'm not trying to convince you here. Not ever trying to change your mind. Just don't make assumptions based on very limited experiences and throw out statements like "I didn't like X so X must be bad for others too as I'll never recommend it".

In response to Bill Gates. Guess what? Gates didn't got rich from writing Windows himself. He stole and built on already existing, often raw, technology. This in combination with his genius-like, business-centric mind is what got him the money.

I won't try to respond to all of your diatribe, there is no answer to a vacuum anyway. But you managed to totally miss the point about vi, even though I had clearly stated that I was trying out Linux Mint now. The point is that I am not adverse to trying out something new (or else I would not be trying out Mint, would I?), but that the same type of limitations that existed many years ago on Linux and its precursor Unix are still with us. They have not made much progress on user friendliness. That opened up a huge door for MS, and Bill stepped right through it, to the eternal annoyance of Linux fans ever since.

I can use Linux too once it is set up; ask you Mom to get GPUGrid running under BOINC while remotely monitoring it. But the even more basic question is why bother? You have not attempted to answer that one, except for vindictives against Bill.

The point is that I am not adverse to trying out something new (or else I would not be trying out Mint, would I?), but that the same type of limitations that existed many years ago on Linux and its precursor Unix are still with us. They have not made much progress on user friendliness. That opened up a huge door for MS, and Bill stepped right through it, to the eternal annoyance of Linux fans ever since.

Actually, no. The limitations are only in your little experienced mind. You also might wanna read up on why Windows became the default on all sold PCs (hint, hint, MS pays HW manufacturers) and also read on what happened during the UNIX wars that your beloved Bill exploited to become the dominant player

Oh boy, for someone who "used vi even before most on this forum were born", you surely don't know a lot of history

I won't try to respond to all of your diatribe, there is no answer to a vacuum anyway.

But you managed to totally miss the point about vi, even though I had clearly stated that I was trying out Linux Mint now. The point is that I am not adverse to trying out something new (or else I would not be trying out Mint, would I?),

...but that the same type of limitations that existed many years ago on Linux and its precursor Unix are still with us. They have not made much progress on user friendliness. That opened up a huge door for MS, and Bill stepped right through it, to the eternal annoyance of Linux fans ever since.

I can use Linux too once it is set up; ask you Mom to get GPUGrid running under BOINC while remotely monitoring it. But the even more basic question is why bother? You have not attempted to answer that one, except for vindictives against Bill.

It looks like you have given up on performance and ease of use, and are resorting to drinking habits. Let us know what you come up with.

I can use Linux too once it is set up; ask you Mom to get GPUGrid running under BOINC while remotely monitoring it. But the even more basic question is why bother? You have not attempted to answer that one, except for vindictives against Bill.

More lemming lies from Lemming Central. Gotta admit you copy and paste pretty fast. Your question has been answered repeatedly. My guess is either you're stupid and can't read or the "truth about LINUX detector" on your Win machine is filtering out the responses. That would be Gates' style.

Actually, no. The limitations are only in your little experienced mind. You also might wanna read up on why Windows became the default on all sold PCs (hint, hint, MS pays HW manufacturers) and also read on what happened during the UNIX wars that your beloved Bill exploited to become the dominant player

Oh boy, for someone who "used vi even before most on this forum were born", you surely don't know a lot of history

You aren't even close. MS became dominant because IBM adopted it, and let Bill Gates keep the copyright on the software (DOS). Try an alternative universe where you explanation might be more accepted.

Why do you think IBM adopted it? Because the software was so amazing? For Christ's sake, the early versions were bug-filled.

In the initial planning, IBM was pushing its own OS for the PC-compatible, only the BASIC-interpreter was to be made by MS. After time, when IBM saw their new OS didn't progress as planned, they went to MS and MS agreed to deliver the OS. Billy initially planned to write it himself but soon went searching at other firms until he discovered QDOS that MS bought for 50.000 dollars and developed it further.... if you want more history, there's this amazing search engine called Google that can help you

No, because Billy boy exploited yet another opportunity ;)

Ad-hominem attacks to "try another universe" don't work on me ;)

Why do you think IBM adopted it? Because the software was so amazing? For Christ's sake, the early versions were bug-filled.

In the initial planning, IBM was pushing its own OS for the PC-compatible, only the BASIC-interpreter was to be made by MS. After time, when IBM saw their new OS didn't progress as planned, they went to MS and MS agreed to deliver the OS. Billy initially planned to write it himself but soon went searching at other firms until he discovered QDOS that MS bought for 50.000 dollars and developed it further.... if you want more history, there's this amazing search engine called Google that can help you

No, because Billy boy exploited yet another opportunity ;)

Ad-hominem attacks to "try another universe" don't work on me ;)

At least you recognize that your earlier version was not accurate. Of course Bill exploited opportunities; you seem to think that is a dirty term. Is that what you call an "Ad-hominem" attack? I can never tell with people trying to argue against history.

Actually, no. The limitations are only in your little experienced mind. You also might wanna read up on why Windows became the default on all sold PCs (hint, hint, MS pays HW manufacturers)

Actually, no. The limitations are only in your little experienced mind. You also might wanna read up on why Windows became the default on all sold PCs (hint, hint, MS pays HW manufacturers)

Wrong. If you were a computer assembler (Dell, HP, Compaq, etc.) MS threatened to make their OS incompatible with your hardware unless you pre-installed Windows on your computers. They also threatened any store that sold a PC that did not have Windows pre-installed on it and tried to prevent anybody from even selling all the parts for a PC without a copy of Windows. That's unfair trade practice which makes Gates nothing but a dirty crook. But if you distort the facts enough and use the "Gates is rich therefore it must be good" fallacy lemmings seem to eat it up and cough up endless quantities of hard earned cash on what is basically junk.

The good thing Gates ever did was force some standards into the industry for PnP to work but he even tried to own that all to himself, along with the Internet. Other than those standards, which Linux does a lot better btw, Gates is a useless asshole. Rich, but useless and an asshole.

...The good thing Gates ever did was force some standards into the industry for PnP to work but he even tried to own that all to himself...

You have overlooked the obvious. If Linux is so good (and free), why don't the hardware manufacturers use it?

In fact, why are you arguing your point at all?

I am perfectly happy to let you or anyone else who wants to use Linux do so; if they are familiar with it from work or school, it is a lot easier. But you asked a question in your original post, and have been trying to avoid the answer ever since.

I think the 40 posts in this thread (before mine) have provided the answer to the original question.

What is so hard about Linux? To get civilised people to hold a civilised conversation on the subject.

Exactly the same question, and answer, apply to Windows.

Going back to topic again, two things I find hard about Linux is:
1. Installing things by yourself or updating BOINC to the latest version. If I installed it wrongly, not being the owner of the directory, I never can get to that directory, look in it and change things like the cc_config file.
2. Monitoring and adjusting software for GPU, CPU like temperature, fan speed, memory use and the like.

@microchip, I am sorry to hear that you lost your mother. My mother is almost 6 years dead but it always struck me when I hear or read that someone has lost her or his mother. It is very sad.
____________
Greetings from TJ

Now to help get this thread back on topic, how difficult would it be to add a feature where we could manually control the video card fan speed on the second or third video card? Getting tired of seeing one video card at 52c and the other at 71c. If I could do that I would ditch Windows on all but two of my computers (work related issues) as that is the only real reason why I have Windows.

I think the 40 posts in this thread (before mine) have provided the answer to the original question.

What is so hard about Linux? To get civilised people to hold a civilised conversation on the subject.

Exactly the same question, and answer, apply to Windows.

Going back to topic again, two things I find hard about Linux is:
1. Installing things by yourself or updating BOINC to the latest version. If I installed it wrongly, not being the owner of the directory, I never can get to that directory, look in it and change things like the cc_config file.
2. Monitoring and adjusting software for GPU, CPU like temperature, fan speed, memory use and the like.

I think the 40 posts in this thread (before mine) have provided the answer to the original question.

What is so hard about Linux? To get civilised people to hold a civilised conversation on the subject.

Exactly the same question, and answer, apply to Windows.

I resent your insinuation that I am civilized and I suspect Jim1348 does too.
____________
BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

How did she fix the VNC crash? I can still try it out before the Windows disc arrives. I don't want to stand in the way of your search for truth.

I think the 40 posts in this thread (before mine) have provided the answer to the original question.

What is so hard about Linux? To get civilised people to hold a civilised conversation on the subject.

Exactly the same question, and answer, apply to Windows.

I would love to run Linux on my crunching boxes again. Most of them were Linux back in the "CPU project only" days but now all my crunching machines have 1 NVidia and 1 AMD GPU installed. I have had no luck getting both to run BOINC simultaneously in any version of Linux that I've tried (I'm certainly NOT an advanced Linux user though). Windows 7-64 runs both seamlessly. If there was a way to move my machines to Linux I'd do it without another thought. If you can come up with a solution I'd be indebted to you.

Regards/Beyond

Beyond,

I had forgotten that was an issue on Linux so thanks for the reminder. I'll look into it and if it's just a matter of it being a tricky setup procedure I might be able to make that easier with a script or something. If it's a low-level driver conflict with Xorg then it might need mods to Xorg or the kernel which is of course way beyond my ability. I'm thinking maybe Xorg can deal with only 1 driver at a time or something like that. I'll see what info I can dig up. Do you have any info on why the problem exists?

____________
BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

I resent your insinuation that I am civilized and I suspect Jim1348 does too.

ATI is a pain on Linux. Mind you, lots of people struggle with ATI on Windows too. Getting MW WU's to run is a challenge nowdays.
Even on Windows, NVidia drivers want NVidia cards only, otherwise some portion of the drivers doesn't work (PhysX, I think).

The problem I have with Linux is that the commands and the interface change far too much. Every time I install a new version it's like starting from scratch.

Then there is that new 'recovery' screen. Tried to installed Ubuntu on an oldish laptop - after an hour or two I was presented with some gibber and a command line. Found a help menu which consisted entirely of non-helpful, alien commands, basically more gibber. 13.x works fine on new desktops but not old laptops.

That said, if it's a choice of Metro or Linux, there is only one winner and it's not Metro. I have a small laptop with W8 on it and it's the most unintuitive OS I've ever encountered. Seriously, it's just broken. Even when browsing the web it manages to screw up the page. Using it is like working in slow motion. It takes unproductive to a whole new level of useless.

I resent your insinuation that I am civilized and I suspect Jim1348 does too.

I didn't quite realize that I was throwing a match onto gasoline, but should have. I love Linux, but will just let someone else run it for me.

Jim, It might have been a bit dry but it wasn't an insult, it was witty and vanity free and the target of the joke wasn't just you. Awaken your sense of humour and lose that paranoia - better to be mad than paranoid!

While the repo drivers tend to be the best, it's often the case that LTS editions don't bother updating NVidia drivers.

Then there is the repo Boinc versions - and yes, I'm lazy too!

I didn't take your response as being paranoid, btw. I can be as volatile as gasoline, it's true, and all I can say in my defense is that I don't hold grudges. It's just words, not sticks and stones.

Beyond,

I had forgotten that was an issue on Linux so thanks for the reminder. I'll look into it and if it's just a matter of it being a tricky setup procedure I might be able to make that easier with a script or something. If it's a low-level driver conflict with Xorg then it might need mods to Xorg or the kernel which is of course way beyond my ability. I'm thinking maybe Xorg can deal with only 1 driver at a time or something like that. I'll see what info I can dig up. Do you have any info on why the problem exists?

ATI is a pain on Linux. Mind you, lots of people struggle with ATI on Windows too. Getting MW WU's to run is a challenge nowdays.
Even on Windows, NVidia drivers want NVidia cards only, otherwise some portion of the drivers doesn't work (PhysX, I think).

That's what I thought you meant. I don't know if I can iron out some of the tough spots in a way that suits everybody, or even anybody, but I'll try. Thanks for contributing your thoughts on what makes it difficult for you, I'll try to address some of those concerns.

I used to work for a couple of truck drivers. One was in love with Kenworth tractors; the other thought Peterbilt ruled. They used to get into horrible battles over which was the best truck. When they realised neither of them was winning they'd fight over which engine was best. The one thought Cummins was top dog; the other thought if it wasn't Waukesha (now Detroit Diesel) it was junk. I couldn't understand how they could get so worked up and start cussing and throwing stuff at each other but eventually I realized that they spend years in their truck and eventually it becomes very close and personal to them. When someone else criticizes what they call home for a good part of their life it offends them. Ones choice of OS can become a very close and personal thing too if one spends enough time with it.

____________
BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

I bought a laptop with Win 8.0 installed and gave it an honest 3 month trial. In the end I concluded it might be better if you have a touchscreen but with a mouse/touchpad it was exactly as you say... unproductive to a whole new level of uselessness.

Here is a progress report on what I've discovered so far to let you know what I think I can do and how I think should proceed.

Crunchuntu

I mentioned the possibility that I might be able to derive a new OS I refer to as Crunchuntu from Ubuntu. I haven't abandoned Crunchuntu but after looking into in more detail it's obvious to me that it will take a long time.

Plan B

I also mentioned the possibility of a "do it all script" that you could download and run after you install Ubuntu. After exploring that idea and thinking about it I think the best way to do it would be 2 separate scripts. In memory of Dr. Seuss I refer to the 2 scripts as "Thing 1" and "Thing 2", now here's what they do.

Thing 1

• runs on Windows 7/8, possibly XP too
  
• written in Python (would require you to install Python which is relatively easy) or perhaps Windows Powershell (already exists on every Win 7/8 installation, no installation required)
  
• you download the script and run it
  
• the script automatically (no intervention from you) downloads the Ubuntu 12.04 ISO file, verifies the download is not corrupt via SHA256, burns the ISO to DVD, creates a new, blank partition for Ubuntu to install on later on whichever HDD you choose.
  
• at that point you have a verified, bootable Ubuntu 12.04 DVD plus a partition to install it on else you have a log file explaining why the process failed
  

Thing 2

• runs on Ubuntu, in other words you install Ubuntu 12.04 using the DVD Thing1 created for you then you download and run Thing 2
  
• automatically downloads BOINC and installs it for you on your account so that you have all the permissions required to configure BOINC easily with a cc_config.xml, app_info or whatever you need
  
• configures BOINC to start automatically at boot (if you select that option) and creates clickable icons for starting and stopping the client and manager whenever you wish
  
• configures itself to autostart at boot time (if you wish) so it can monitor all sorts of stuff and do many of the things BOINC fails to do for example kill tasks that run for 11 days when they should require no more than 11 hours.
  
• written in Python and has a GUI
  
• could easily be included as is in Cruchuntu if Crunchuntu ever becomes a reality
  

Reactions, suggestions and questions are welcome.
____________
BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

Sounds absolutely amazing. I've been wanting to teach myself Linux for a while now. My last attempt was with Debian and ended in failure with me trying desperately to give myself permission to install BOINC without any success.
____________

Hi Matt,

Don't feel bad. If you don't know anything about Linux then trying to install it and BOINC and get it all running and crunching is more than most newbies can chew without choking. I did it in 2 steps. The first step was to firmly resolve that I wasn't going to just try it and see if I could make it work, I was going to learn it and make it work no matter what and no matter how long it took. Like Yoda said, "There is no try there is only do."

Second step was to install Linux in a dual-boot configuration so I could switch back and forth. While I was at work or sleeping my computers ran Windows so they could crunch. After work I booted Linux and spent an hour a day learning how to use it from a book I bought and from online tutorials and forums. A couple months later I knew enough about Linux to install BOINC on it. It took another week to learn how to start BOINC. A month later I deleted the Windows partition on my 2 machines and booted only Linux. That wasn't the end of the learning process and I knew it but I also knew I would never have to revert to Windows again. Finally, I was free.

Hopefully I can help get newbies up and crunching quickly by automating a few things for them. After they're crunching, if they want, they can take time to learn Linux so they can do more (eg. web surf, email, etc.). Or they can just let it crunch and do all their regular stuff on a Windows machine. My objective is not really to convert anybody to Linux. Only you can convert yourself. All I want is to make it possible for Vista/7/8 users to be able to crunch GPUgrid on Linux so they aren't hampered by WDDM. If that's all they ever do with Linux then I will have succeeded. If they become a full convert then that will be a success they can call their own, not mine.

____________
BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

Hi Dagorath: The idea is very good and actually facilitate people as installing BOINC on Linux to automate the steps in a tutorial detailing only.

One suggestion, to advise colleagues own experience, the problem is also have many users with Nvidia drivers and Coolbits, initially with the installation and configuration, then after the update.

If not resolved and clear guidelines are given to this issue, it is useless to have Boinc installed correctly.

Here is a progress report on what I've discovered so far to let you know what I think I can do and how I think should proceed.

Reactions, suggestions and questions are welcome.

Hi Carlesa,

You are correct, as usual :-) The drivers and Coolbits are difficult for newbies and I know because it took me a long time to understand it. I plan to automate drivers and Coolbits via a script but I forgot to mention it in my last post.

Automating driver installation and driver upgrades and downgrades on stock Ubuntu 12.04 has been one of the more difficult parts of my task due to Unity but yesterday I finally found the advice I need to make it work. I haven't coded it yet but I'm confident it will work nicely and save a lot of work and confusion for everyone.

Thanks for your interest in my project and I hope you continue to share your excellent advice and experience.

____________
BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

Hi Mikey,

Good point but just a few minutes after I outlined Thing 1, I recalled a problem mentioned by captainjack a few weeks ago. The problem is that if Linux is installed alongside Win7 in a dual-boot configuration in the usual way then Win7 won't install updates. The good news is that it's very easy to install it the way Win7 wants it. Captainjack's post provides a link to an excellent online tutorial, complete with step-by-step screenshots of every detail, that shows you exactly how to:

1) shrink an existing partition to make room for the Linux partitions (assuming you don't have unallocated space on your HDD)
2) install Ubuntu 12.04
3) install and run an app on Win7 that tweaks the boot partitions in a way that convinces Win7 it's OK to install updates

The upshot of all that is Thing 1 no longer needs to do the repartitioning step so that saves me a lot of time coding Thing 1. All it has to do is D/L the Ubuntu 12.04 ISO, verify the download, burn the DVD then verify the burn. I think I can do that with an easy to write DOS batch file, no need for the user to install Python and no need for me to learn Windows Powershell. You are correct when you say those steps are easy to do manually but I've seen many newbies screw it up and end up with the wrong version or a bugged version because they didn't verify the integrity of the download or else didn't verify the burn. That creates problems for anybody trying to help them figure out what's going wrong. Nobody needs that. A proper DVD is the foundation upon which all that follows rests and it's best for all concerned to make absolutely sure that foundation is solid.

So now I am in the process of setting up a rig with a fresh Win7 install on it so I can verify that Thing 1 works after I code it and that the online tutorial pointed to by captainjack works. When it works for me then I want a few other people to test it and verify that it works for them too. Are you down for a little testing, Mikey? I know you don't need Thing 1 but that makes you the perfect tester... if Thing 1 doesn't work for you you'll have a much better idea of where it's failing than someone who has never burned an ISO to DVD before.

Edit added:

BTW, here is the post by captainjack I mentioned. The URL for the tutorial he suggested is http://www.linuxbsdos.com/2012/05/17/how-to-dual-boot-ubuntu-12-04-and-windows-7/.

@captainjack: if you're listening in, thanks again for the advice in that post and the link to the tutorial
____________
BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

If it helps, I'm reasonably experienced in Windows (I can burn an ISO :P), but I am an utter and complete n00b in Linux.

I have a Windows 7 Pro box (Dell OEM install) which I deliberately bought as a sacrificial OS to test some problems with the BOINC Windows installer and account permissions, when Rom Walton eventually has time to devote to that again - it has a factory recovery image of the OS in (I'd better check this) a separate partition of the hard disk.

It's an i5 'Haswell', and the integrated Intel HD 4600 is crunching happily on projects that support it. A twitching in my wallet suggests that it might acquire a GTX 750 Maxwell of some description next month, so that would make it a candidate for Thing 2 as well.

I also made a contribution to Adaptiva's "Parallella" project, so I should be receiving a release pack in due course. All things considered, this might be the year I start to learn Linux, so going along for the ride with Thing 1 and Thing 2 could be a way to do it.

Richard,

Earning your interest tells me I am at least headed in the right general direction if not on precisely the right track. I would be grateful to have your considerable talent providing some feedback or whatever you have time for.

There are a lot of signs telling me this is a good time to learn some Linux. With the advent of VT-d, maturation of virtual machine software, the tendency for project devs and researchers to prefer Linux and success (mostly) of Rom's VBox wrapper at T4T, I have a feeling more projects will be providing only Linux applications in the future. They will run on virtual Linux machines on everything from Macs to Unix machines, PCs to huge mainframes and relieve project devs of the chore of developing and maintaining apps for 3 or more OS's. Yes, a god time to learn Linux if I read the signs right.

Slight change of topic:

I have a new i7-4771 Haswell arriving this week, with VT-d, and I'm interested in experimenting with virtualizing GPUs.

____________
BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

Slight change of topic:

I have a new i7-4771 Haswell arriving this week, with VT-d, and I'm interested in experimenting with virtualizing GPUs.

Dagorath, I go along with your project to follow its progress and make good use (parts) of it. I have Linux running on a system to test it.
The most frustrating thing to me is that it is my PC, I have installed the OS and it are my files. But installing things wrongly then I am not the owner and do not have the right to go the the directories I made myself on my own PC! Please keep that in mind when making scripts. Thanks.
____________
Greetings from TJ

I have a new i7-4771 Haswell arriving this week, with VT-d, and I'm interested in experimenting with virtualizing GPUs.

I understand that GPU virtualisation is only supported for Tesla K20 and Grid GPUs.

Matt

Dagorath, I go along with your project to follow its progress and make good use (parts) of it. I have Linux running on a system to test it.
The most frustrating thing to me is that it is my PC, I have installed the OS and it are my files. But installing things wrongly then I am not the owner and do not have the right to go the the directories I made myself on my own PC! Please keep that in mind when making scripts. Thanks.

Yes that works for me Dagorath. Having Linux installed and play with it helps to understand the OS. I am not crunching with it yet, the rig has not a GPU capable for it. Use it to become familiar with it.
____________
Greetings from TJ

Hi Mikey,
Are you down for a little testing, Mikey? I know you don't need Thing 1 but that makes you the perfect tester... if Thing 1 doesn't work for you you'll have a much better idea of where it's failing than someone who has never burned an ISO to DVD before.

I heard that Riva Tuner could be made to worked in an XP VM hosted from a Linux system (which could be beneficial for those with multiple GPU's and struggle with cool-bits). All this may now be irrelevant should Matt's Linux system tick a few boxes...

Hi Mikey,
Are you down for a little testing, Mikey? I know you don't need Thing 1 but that makes you the perfect tester... if Thing 1 doesn't work for you you'll have a much better idea of where it's failing than someone who has never burned an ISO to DVD before.

Sure, I have a box I am willing to sacrifice for testing. My main testing box is only a dual core so I hope that is okay, but I could do a quad if I need to. If you need one with a gpu it will have to be the dual core for now. Are you think Nvidia gpu's only, or are you thinking Boinc wide and ATI and Nvidia gpu's will both work. Or is all that too early yet?

How big of a hard drive will I need in the machine, right now I have a 160gb one with over 90gb free in my test box, but I have a small stack of other drives I could add in if needed.

Howdo - sorry to hijack the thread. I've made you all a live Linux USB disk. The thread about it is here: http://www.gpugrid.net/forum_thread.php?id=3642

Matt

I get the impression many GPUgrid crunchers would like to try Linux but are turned off by reports from those who have tried and either gave up or failed. What are the stumbling blocks? How could the whole process of installing Linux and BOINC and setting it up to crunch GPUgrid be made easier? Is it simply installing the OS itself? Is it installing BOINC? Is it the NVIDIA drivers? Let's discuss it and see if I and some of the other Linux users here can provide some scripts or packages that automate some of the harder parts.

Thanks for your input and sad to hear Ubuntu Linux didn't work for you.

The highest version number is not always the best. The version you tried, 13.x, is an odd numbered version which means it's not stable. You should have tried 12.04 instead.

With 12.04 I haven't had any problem with any of the issues you mentioned. Linux recognizes all the disks and partitions on a system. The reason Windows users think it doesn't is because it doesn't name them and organize them the way Windows does.

Networking with Windows machines in Ubuntu 12.04 is just a couple of mouse clicks away. There is a wizard specifically for that on the app launcher and it's very simple to use. I guess you just didn't find it?

I install lots of software that isn't in the Software Center. If it's a .deb package (most of it is) all you have to do is download it and click on it. NVIDIA drivers install with a click or 2 from the "Additional drivers" app in the app launcher. It doesn't provide the absolutely latest version but it does guarantee a stable version.

My Thing 2 script will provide easy NVIDIA driver updates and roll backs on demand (i.e. when the user wants to not when the OS wants to).

If you give it a while you see that you are not totally reliant on the terminal to do anything useful. You find lots of stuff is handleable by GUIs. Windows users are adverse to using a terminal/console because the Windows shell is extremely difficult and backwards. It's just the opposite in Linux, the shell and therefore console/terminal is very well developed and user friendly.

I think people get the idea Linux is all terminal because in forums, whenever someone asks how to do something in Linux, the response usually involves terminal commands. The reason for that is usually because it's easier to explain that as a solution than to explain which GUI to install and all the clicks needed to get something done. The GUIs are often there if you need them but terminals are often easier and faster.

Hope you find XP's drawbacks less troublesome but if it's an unauthorized version/install I think you'll find it's a PITA. Every OS is a PITA, sometimes, even Linux. Whichever one is least painful for you is the one you want.

____________
BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

The thing is it allows you to set the fan speed but not a target temperature. So you set the fan at say 40% because that speed keeps your card at a nice 70*C then the ambient temperature goes up for whatever reason (your AC quits, the sun rises and shines in the window and heats up the room, your wife catches a chill and cranks the thermostat up, whatever) and suddenly your cards are running at 85*C. What you really need is an app that allows you to set a target temperature, say 70*C, and then automatically adjusts the fan speed to keep the card at that temperature. If the ambient temp goes up the app adjusts the fan speed up to keep the card at the target temp. If the ambient goes down then the app adjusts the fan speed down to conserve a little power, reduce noise and avoid unnecessary wear and tear on the fan.

I think that's what you really want and I happen to have exactly that. I wrote the app myself, it works perfect with 1 fan so far because all I had was 1 fan when I wrote it but I'm sure it could work with several more fans. I have it setup to start when the OS boots though it can also be setup to start by clicking an icon on your desktop or an icon on the Application Launcher (Start Menu in Windows speak).

You can already do that via the nvidia-settings app that ships with Linux drivers. It's a GUI app, you click an icon to run it. I have used it to control the fan speed on 2 cards and set them at different speeds. I have heard it works with a maximum of 4 cards but others have said the limit is much higher than that. I haven't seen many motherboards with more than 4 slots so 4 should be plenty.

Every OS is a PITA

I'm not sure if AMD is harder to deal with in Linux. I've heard stories that say the greatest difficulty is getting AMD and NVIDIA to work side-by-side in Linux. We shall see as I will be receiving an AMD 7770 soon. I'll be putting it in with my 3 NVIDIA cards and will try to get it working.

I would like to release 1 version of Crunchuntu that has drivers for AMD and NVIDIA pre-installed plus all the other features I've mentioned. If I can't make that work then I'll release 2 flavors of Crunchuntu: 1 for AMD and the other for NVIDIA.

An update rfor anybody looking forward to Crunchuntu:

Work on Crunchuntu is progressing, perhaps slowly, but it is progressing. The biggest problem I face is building the GUI. If it were not for the GUI it would be mostly done but I'm not as experienced with GUIs as I am with CLI apps. The latter are much easier but I said I would try to make it all GUI so that's what I'll try to do.

____________
BOINC <<--- credit whores, pedants, alien hunters

An update rfor anybody looking forward to Crunchuntu:

Work on Crunchuntu is progressing, perhaps slowly, but it is progressing. The biggest problem I face is building the GUI. If it were not for the GUI it would be mostly done but I'm not as experienced with GUIs as I am with CLI apps. The latter are much easier but I said I would try to make it all GUI so that's what I'll try to do.

I've been using Linux for two years and crunching on linux notebooks for three months. North bridge of my old notebook was getting very hot while running bot CPU and GPU works. So I ran only CPU works.
Now, I have a fairly new notebook. It crunchs all the projects well but GPUgrid CUDA works causes the GPU temps to reach 95 degrees while running with full CPU load. Einstein@home was able to reach only 80 degrees. So I run only GPUgrid GPU works on this now. This way GPU temps doesn't reach above 90degs.
Problem with Linux was Optimus support of Nvidia. But I was able to run Boinc with optirun boinc command and running fine now. However, I have broken the OpenCL support someway.

Does anyone have an opinion on Mint Debian? That is, would it be easier/harder to set up with BOINC?
http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=2577

How about driver updates, as compared to Mint Ubuntu for example?
Does 32/64 bit matter for GPUGrid purposes?