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Message boards : GPUGRID CAFE : donate@home , I hope its worth it .

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Message 23564 - Posted: 20 Feb 2012 | 9:20:43 UTC
Last modified: 20 Feb 2012 | 10:06:00 UTC

Well I just put a 4870 online for this. I guess i will see if its worth it .
I guess if you dont need the GPU for real work it might as well do the bitcoin thing for you. I am a little leary about putting the other one over on it as well but if you would rather I can put 1 more on it as well .
I really wish I could figure out what is needed more , bitcoin or crunching for someone else. but as there is no way for me to know if all this stuff i am crunching is really needed at all I guess 1 GPU cant really hurt .
This Bitcoin thing is making my head hurt .
what i would like to know is , If the GPU,s are needed for other work is there some one that can tell us ? Money IS needed and if the bitcoin is Lo right now then it is time to get in . But if the GPU power is needed for real science how will I know ? Someone better informed than I am needs to let us , the people that just want to help out , know .

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Message 23647 - Posted: 25 Feb 2012 | 12:49:43 UTC

But if the GPU power is needed for real science how will I know ? Someone better informed than I am needs to let us , the people that just want to help out , know

Better informed .... I'm certainly not in that category, but do have a view.

The whole anti-bitcoin thing is internet driven, usual story of innuendo and half truth based on ill-informed drama seekers who have not bothered to really find out what it is.

In regard to GPUGRID, I see no controversy, only manufactured controversy. Whether a GPU crunches a medical model direct, or enables the research to construct that model hardly matters - in the end science benefits. In fact there is a line of thought that says, enable the research as it is a more efficient way of creating multiple models.

The problem is that Bitcoin was tainted as a "gold diggers paradise" in its early days because it was easier to gain money from the system, getting harder and harder now as the algorithms that have to be solved get harder (by design - they are supposed to get harder). People ignored the fact (or more likely never understood) that such "mining" was needed to secure the network. So toilet rumour control was born, and its not abated since.

If an individual is a "cruncher", whether or not they "crunch" bitcoin or a GPU model is of total irelevance in terms of cost of power et al - PC will be on anyway, and the cost of that is factored in as a base cost of a Chrunching Hobby. As for the euphamistic bitcoin project for grandma's wheelchair et al, thats just silly, such a frivolous project is attracting no one to crunch for it. So there is no abuse of BOINC, only in the minds of the prejudiced.

At the end of the day, it boils down to personal choice, as all crunching does, in terms of whether or not to support a project. A Bitcoin based project is no different, and threatens no one or any other charity project. It may be seen as short term barrier to some individual plans, but thats no excuse to distort a bitcoin project's use of BOINC software.

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Message 23650 - Posted: 25 Feb 2012 | 18:47:08 UTC - in response to Message 23564.

This Bitcoin thing is making my head hurt .


LOL!

what i would like to know is , If the GPU,s are needed for other work is there some one that can tell us ?


Such a decision is based entirely on one's individual values, and no one can really tell you the "worth" of the bitcoin project relative to other projects without bringing in their own value judgements.

Unquestionably, D@H will be able to generate funds by running a bitcoin mining pool. Whether or not these funds will cover their project overhead - much less fund a GPUGRID research position - remains to be seen. But if you're a "the ends justifies the means" type of person, then you shouldn't have a problem volunteering your card to D@H. On the other hand, If you want have an idea of the value of the bitcoin project before volunteering on D@H, I see no other way for you to arrive at an answer to your question without researching the matter yourself.

The paper at http://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf is the logical starting point. The paper outlines problems with the current "trust-based" electronic payment systems, then goes on to describe the bitcoin solution from a technical standpoint. It is important to note that the "Satoshi" paper is seminal; it was almost certainly written before the bitcoin network actually existed. Therefore, the paper says nothing about how the project has fared with respect to meeting it's stated goals during the three years since the network was implemented.

It's easy to conclude "bitcoin is great" if one only relies on the information contained in Satoshi's paper. IMO, one needs to assess the current state of the bitcoin "economy" to draw any conclusions about whether or not bitcoin is a project worth supporting today. And that's the rub, because assessing the current state of bitcoin requires a fair amount of time and some expertise in economics/banking/business processes/etc. to arrive at an informed opinion on the matter.

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Message 23656 - Posted: 26 Feb 2012 | 10:34:19 UTC

I decided to stop crunching BOINC projects at all.

If the community doesn't have neither self respect to not whore themselves for money in exchange for top points nor power to stop people from abusing the system I see no point in supporting it with my electricity and gpu hardware.

Donate@home has neither economical sense - since it produces less money than electricity used to create it nor scientific sense - since it doesn't discover anything.

Even worse it's directly harmfull to enviroment - if you donated that money instead of would be few seconds transfer and it's done. Transfering money through donate@home also will consume a lot of electricity adding to CO2 polution (or creating more nuclear waste) and dead GPUs which will be decomposing over next few hundreds years.

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Message 23660 - Posted: 26 Feb 2012 | 12:28:38 UTC - in response to Message 23656.
Last modified: 26 Feb 2012 | 12:28:58 UTC

I decided to stop crunching BOINC projects at all.

If the community doesn't have neither self respect to not whore themselves for money in exchange for top points nor power to stop people from abusing the system I see no point in supporting it with my electricity and gpu hardware.

Donate@home has neither economical sense - since it produces less money than electricity used to create it nor scientific sense - since it doesn't discover anything.

Even worse it's directly harmfull to enviroment - if you donated that money instead of would be few seconds transfer and it's done. Transfering money through donate@home also will consume a lot of electricity adding to CO2 polution (or creating more nuclear waste) and dead GPUs which will be decomposing over next few hundreds years.


In the end it is YOUR decision but to put a little perspective on the situation...I choose to crunch for one or two projects at a time and focus on them before moving on to the next project. I don't care how others crunch, just as I don't care that a now out of jail murderer lives down the street from me. It is not my decision where he lives, it is his. It IS my decision to not associate with him, it IS my decision to keep my kids away from him and his place, it IS my decision to live my life and not let him be a part of it! YOU too could find a project you support and ignore all those that chose otherwise, just as you could chose to ignore all the meat eaters if you were a vegan. You could chose to ignore fat people if you didn't like that aspect of life either, you could chose to ignore anything but to ignore the effect of crunching just means any cure or data will take longer for those of us that chose to remain to find! NO guilt trips here, chose to crunch or don't, but those of us remaining will just take longer to finish than if you helped us!

ps there are a whole bunch of 'dubious' Boinc projects out there! Each has a following, but not everyone crunches for them!

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Message 23664 - Posted: 26 Feb 2012 | 16:10:16 UTC - in response to Message 23656.

I decided to stop crunching BOINC projects at all.

If the community doesn't have neither self respect to not whore themselves for money in exchange for top points nor power to stop people from abusing the system I see no point in supporting it with my electricity and gpu hardware.

Donate@home has neither economical sense - since it produces less money than electricity used to create it nor scientific sense - since it doesn't discover anything.

Even worse it's directly harmfull to enviroment - if you donated that money instead of would be few seconds transfer and it's done. Transfering money through donate@home also will consume a lot of electricity adding to CO2 polution (or creating more nuclear waste) and dead GPUs which will be decomposing over next few hundreds years.


What? No more using Boinc for number theory conjectures, prime searches or brute force encryption cracking. Fair enough!
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Message 23665 - Posted: 26 Feb 2012 | 16:16:26 UTC

Thats a VERY good point! :)
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Message 23666 - Posted: 26 Feb 2012 | 16:51:30 UTC - in response to Message 23656.

I decided to stop crunching BOINC projects at all.

@michaelius, while I can certainly understand your sentiments, I hope you will reconsider your decision. Just because BOINC has a few blemishes doesn't mean it's not worth supporting. No need to throw the baby out with the bath water, as they say. ;)

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Message 23667 - Posted: 26 Feb 2012 | 18:48:33 UTC - in response to Message 23656.

If the community doesn't have neither self respect to not whore themselves for money in exchange for top points nor power to stop people from abusing the system I see no point in supporting it with my electricity and gpu hardware.

This like saying that you are not going to use the computer anymore because you like the use somepeople does of their computers. I think there're many silly projects on BOINC, everyone has the right to choose the ones they like. Probably someone thinks the ones I chose are silly too!

Donate@home has neither economical sense - since it produces less money
than electricity used to create it nor scientific sense - since it doesn't discover anything.

This is true for NVIDIA cards, but not for other cards. This is discused in many forums. But there are many economic and politic concers related to it too. I have been very critic with this project, but they have improved the info a lot, now it has much more info on the web page and you can get informed.

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Message 23669 - Posted: 26 Feb 2012 | 23:37:10 UTC

Much is said about Bitcoin in a standalone sense from the angle of starting up a Bitcoin cruncher for personal gain. The calculations for that are not hard, and the outcome certainly points towards uneconomic useage. There are some who still do it with large GPU Farms for personal gain, good luck to them if they can get it to work for pure cash. Personally I would not bother, bit dubious, but hey each to their own, its a free world as they say.

BOINC is a different prospect. Here the individual has switched on Crunchers for other reasons, they will - as such - always be on, the individual only then has to chose what to crunch "today". Does that change the economic model, no of course not, but it does change the real world useage into a full time hobby where the dynamics are wholely different. If the cruncher wants to crunch for science, go for it; numbers/maths/science? go for it; save the planet projects touting green credentials? go for it; ego chasing King of the World Tog Dog Credit guy? go for it. In all cases they are having fun, doing their thing, life goes on.

What becomes very tedius, is when one persons motivations are set against anothers in some kind of righteous mode. To somehow set a "green" project against a numbers project then triumphantly claim how dumb the number project is .... geeez ..... its so dumb, dumb beyond words.

You want to play the waste of electicity game - you know that simplistic calculation trying to show how dumb the other guys are? Try the upcoming PrimeGrid Project to find the worlds largest Fermet Prime Number. The number when found is going to be so HUGE it will take months just to verify its a Prime Number - let alone the guargantuan size of the WUs then are going to take weeks to run one of them, and likely a few months before a wingman verify's it. Planet saved ?? Nope. Greener at the end of it?? Nope. Science taking a huge leap forward after these several hundred computers crunched for months searching for the frigging thing ?? Nope.

Its just fun ..... to some people ...... remember that strange concept and activity called FUN ?? Its getting buried these days in all walks of life as drama seekers have a go at this that and the other, trying somehow to show how profound they are. You can usually spot them, they make a huge song and dance about it, the genuine ones - and more power to their elbow - just think to themselves "hey no way", and thats cool, dont have a problem with that.

(before an attack wings in re PG - yes it can be fun, pretty insane at times when you think about it - all that effort for one number .... why ... I have no idea, yet I still crunch away for the last three weeks Seiving the candidate numbers eliminatiiong the factors in preparation for the record attempt by the PG crunchers).

Life is not a competition (at least not all the time), if individuals want to go their own way, do their own thing, thats cool away they go - what is uncool is trying self justification for their decision plastered in neon lights. I'll probably think Mr X is a dumbass for crunching ..... whatever. Mr X probably reckons I'm an irresponsible planet hating moron for not crunching to save the planet. Frankly, tough. I have my reasons for crunching at GPUGRID, whether via models or Donate that have nothing to do with tree huggers or credit chasers or whatever anyone else does.

BOINC is a great place to do your own thing, so do it, whatever it is, and dont forget to have FUN. My reasons are my own, and if individuals dont like it, thats cool, we both go our merry way :)

Start yelling about it, and they can shove that where the Sun dont shine.

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Message 23671 - Posted: 27 Feb 2012 | 4:31:22 UTC
Last modified: 27 Feb 2012 | 5:29:29 UTC

BOINC is a different prospect. Here the individual has switched on Crunchers for other reasons, they will - as such - always be on, the individual only then has to chose what to crunch "today". Does that change the economic model, no of course not, but it does change the real world useage into a full time hobby where the dynamics are wholely different.

...mmm, most of the people I know running BOINC (in real life) don't behave that way. They don't treat crunching as a full time hobby, their computers aren't on 24/7, and they are in fact concerned about electricity costs. If you've got some hard data on BOINC cruncher behavior/hardware that backs up your assertion, it would be great if you'd share a link to it.

All I know right now is if I went to any of my casual cruncher friends and said "I've got this great project where you can raise $1 for science by increasing your electric bill by $1.20...", they would be calling me a dumbass - not anyone else.

Efficiency matters, and neither I nor any of the other ill-informed drama seekers around here are the only ones who feel that way. "Willy" (the owner/operator of BOINCStats) said of D@H:

I'm still not happy with the project, to me it sounds insane to burn electricity to generate a currency which is worth less than the cost of the electricity and the hardware needed to run the app. But since the project doesn't have to cover those costs, it's a win for them. All in all it doesn't seem very efficient and it takes crunching power away from real science. Maybe you should reconsider if you want to run this project instead of donating a few $$ to them.

The above quote comes from someone who has made BOINC a profession, not merely a full time hobby. Further, he didn't just think to himself "hey no way" - he spoke up about it. I doing so, he's not acting self-righteous, calling anyone dumb, or trying to show how profound he is. He not only gave his opinion, he made a recommendation...one all those in the BOINC community should take note of.

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Message 23672 - Posted: 27 Feb 2012 | 8:52:23 UTC
Last modified: 27 Feb 2012 | 9:10:53 UTC

Telling a BOINC're that crunching costs electicity, is like telling a car driver that a car expends fuel when running. It is of course a topic that all think about. If its considered necessary to point out the blindingly obvious, thats fine, just keep it third party language - do not make it a personal attack; discuss it without such silly motivations as you have done - particulaly on such a rediculously simple and blindingly obvious factor, that every BOINCre is aware of.

Whatever anyone feels, the majority of BOINCrs do treat it as a hobby to one degree or another, and there is an element of it that is factored into the use of the PC, thats reality, may not be what some individuals believe or think, but it changes no reality.

The above quote comes from someone who has made BOINC a profession, not merely a full time hobby. Further, he didn't just think to himself "hey no way" - he spoke up about it. I doing so, he's not acting self-righteous, calling anyone dumb, or trying to show how profound he is. He not only gave his opinion, he made a recommendation...one all those in the BOINC community should take note of.


Absolutely correct, he sure did. Could hardly do anything else in letting people know his decision, sitting saying "hey no way" to himself would have been dumb, as no one would have known the decision. But thats blindingly obvious - I think anyway, could be wrong, thought transference may have been invented when I wasnt looking, dont think so though.

He did the correct thing, in my view, and did it in a proper responsible manner, even had the decision gone against Donate, personally I have no problem with that.

I do have a problem with individuals who seek to make a drama out of topics at the expense of others and seem determined to attack specific individuals, just because alternate views are held. To those drama seekers and reputation chasers my comment goes unabatted, they have my contempt, unreserved.

To those who wish to discuss matters without going through the roof or getting personal and twitchy, I do as always respond and discuss.

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Message 23673 - Posted: 27 Feb 2012 | 10:15:00 UTC - in response to Message 23672.

There are lots of people that use inefficient computers to crunch on. If you are going to argue about contributing inefficiently at one project, extend that to all others. At D@H you can at least see the efficiency challenge, and can work out to get a top AMD GPU. Here we have lists of the most efficient GPU's. We inform the cruncher and encourage people to use these efficient cards rather than the lesser cards. This does not mean we exclude people from using less efficient/older cards.
Think of all the CPU projects and how 'inefficient' they are relative to GPU projects.
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Message 23674 - Posted: 27 Feb 2012 | 10:35:38 UTC

Here we have lists of the most efficient GPU's. We inform the cruncher and encourage people to use these efficient cards rather than the lesser cards. This does not mean we exclude people from using less efficient/older cards.

Gets my vote - its always been a neat aspect of GPUGRID, that I believe is very helpful to many

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Message 23677 - Posted: 27 Feb 2012 | 17:35:12 UTC

Whatever anyone feels, the majority of BOINCrs do treat it as a hobby to one degree or another, and there is an element of it that is factored into the use of the PC, thats reality, may not be what some individuals believe or think, but it changes no reality.

That's not what you claimed in your previous post. You asserted that users of BOINC treat it as a full time hobby, and that their PCs are always on. I merely asked you to substantiate your position, because it's not "rediculously simple and blindingly obvious" to me. Sorry if you feel like that constitutes a personal attack.

As far as keeping things third party, I really don't understand what that means. There doesn't appear to be any language to that effect in the forum posting guidelines. In any case, I'm not inclined to take direction on the nature of my posts from anyone but the forum moderators.

If you are going to argue about contributing inefficiently at one project, extend that to all others.

AFAIK, D@H is the only BOINC project where anything close to an objective calculation of efficiency can be performed...are there others?

Here we have lists of the most efficient GPU's. We inform the cruncher and encourage people to use these efficient cards rather than the lesser cards. This does not mean we exclude people from using less efficient/older cards.

Without a doubt, the quality of the information contained on the D@H site has improved dramatically since the project was launched. The D@H leadership certainly deserves credit for this, because ultimately it's about volunteers making an informed choice. IMO, obfuscating cost vs benefit information on bitcoin mining put the reputation of D@H at risk - and by extension put the reputation of GPUGRID at risk. Thanks to you, GDF and others for addressing the matter.

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Message 23728 - Posted: 3 Mar 2012 | 19:09:17 UTC
Last modified: 3 Mar 2012 | 19:14:22 UTC

All 3 GPU's Crunching donate@home now .
Good luck .

As i said if there needed for other work let me know and I will pull them off Donate and change them over . But I was reading over on the Donate Forums and I guess now is the time to ramp-up , I dont understand why but then i dont feel the need to understand it I just need info like that .
Buy Lo-Sell High , works for me ;p
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Message 23730 - Posted: 3 Mar 2012 | 19:23:00 UTC

Now it's the time to crunch as the hashrate of the network went temporarily down, we have more probability to solve blocks.

http://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate
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Message 23734 - Posted: 4 Mar 2012 | 5:43:41 UTC - in response to Message 23730.
Last modified: 4 Mar 2012 | 5:52:20 UTC

Now it's the time to crunch as the hashrate of the network went temporarily down, we have more probability to solve blocks.

http://blockchain.info/charts/hash-rate

Well...maybe. But think about the following:
    Network hashrate cannot be directly measured.
    Network hashrate is estimated based on observed blocks solved for a specified timeframe/difficulty.
    Difficulty increased < 2days ago.
    Adding processing power to the D@H pool ALWAYS increases the likelihood of D@H solving blocks.


My advice? What some chart says about the bitcoin network hashrate shouldn't even be on your radar. Join the project if you believe in bitcoin->GPUGRID.

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Message 23738 - Posted: 4 Mar 2012 | 15:23:15 UTC

Well I do not be-leave in Bitcoin . BUT if someone can use it for keeping crunching going then ok. You see I deal with converting Tarsand to Oil .
So I just want to give back to science because it just seems fair to me .
One thing I have learned from Big Oil is , when you can get it cheap , take it .
So if the possibility of " getting " bitcoin easy is better then I feel I should let others know that , even though I don't " be-leave " that bitcoin is real in my world . That does not make it something others cant use ;p .
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Message 29457 - Posted: 14 Apr 2013 | 19:32:57 UTC

Not sure what all the discussion was in disliking a project!? We all have the right to crunch what we want! Now, I have to check out this d@h, just to see what all the flap was about!
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Message 29472 - Posted: 16 Apr 2013 | 1:15:04 UTC - in response to Message 29457.

Talk about reviving an old thread! I think the majority of the problem is that for many people, it is better for them to donate cash directly, rather than spend electricity BitCoining, then donating the bitcoin.
It depends on your electricity cost.

There is of course what happened last week, with BitCoins losing half their value. One hopes GPUGrid did not have to many Bitcoins stashed away and did not lose too much.

There is also the opinion out there that BitCoins are being used as a way of money laundering, though it has attracted the attention of regulators recently so hopefully that issue will clear up.

But, as you say, it's a free choice, so if you want to, go for it!

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Message 29474 - Posted: 16 Apr 2013 | 11:51:39 UTC - in response to Message 29472.

There is of course what happened last week, with BitCoins losing half their value. One hopes GPUGrid did not have to many Bitcoins stashed away and did not lose too much.

You skipped the bit where BC's doubled in value, http://blockchain.info/charts/market-price
Today (after the crash) the value is about 2.5 times what it was a month ago. A block of 25 would bring in $2750 - That could fund a researcher for a month.
So far it's certainly helped fund this research project, and thus fulfilled it's purpose. IMO better than crunching Pi...
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Message 29475 - Posted: 16 Apr 2013 | 12:51:58 UTC
Last modified: 16 Apr 2013 | 13:00:39 UTC

I still would find it great when it could be possible to get a krone here on gpugrid when someone calculate a defined monthly or weekly (or whatever ^^) amount of credits on donate witch is like spending money ;)

I, as example, could bring 60M in full three months on my 7950 witch is soon "without" work from HCC and i would do that. At the moment i would activate it on Einstein or as replacement of the 4850 on MW to get a second card from my desk into play again for POEM too.
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