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Message 23763 - Posted: 5 Mar 2012 | 2:06:56 UTC
Last modified: 5 Mar 2012 | 2:12:28 UTC

I remember a rather old thread here saying that Dell computers should not be expected to last very long under BOINC usage.

Does that also apply to their newer, gaming/high performance models such as the Alienware Aurora series? Those seem to be about the first I've found that provide sockets for more than one GPU board, without a PSU power rating much higher than needed to overheat my computer room.

If those are not a good choice, what other brands and models would you suggest for someone no longer able to build a home-brew computer, or even lift one, and interested in more than one GPU with a PSU rated no more than 450 Watts?

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Message 23772 - Posted: 5 Mar 2012 | 13:18:46 UTC - in response to Message 23763.
Last modified: 5 Mar 2012 | 13:19:31 UTC

I remember a rather old thread here saying that Dell computers should not be expected to last very long under BOINC usage.

I've seen too many Dell systems with board and PSU failures to ever even consider one for GPU crunching.

Does that also apply to their newer, gaming/high performance models such as the Alienware Aurora series? Those seem to be about the first I've found that provide sockets for more than one GPU board, without a PSU power rating much higher than needed to overheat my computer room.

Cat's don't change their stripes - avoid!
The PSU 'rating' is just that, a 'rating'. It's not the amount of power it will use or heat it will generate. The PSU is key to a good system. Invest in a good PSU and your system will last longer, use less electric and generate less heat.

If those are not a good choice, what other brands and models would you suggest for someone no longer able to build a home-brew computer, or even lift one, and interested in more than one GPU with a PSU rated no more than 450 Watts?

There are lots of sites that allow you to build on-line; select the components and the shop puts them together. I would say a local shop would build to spec for you.

Not sure why you want more than one GPU? Usually one high end GPU is the better option. You would really need to specify a price range. These days a good system (32nm) doesn't use a massive amount of power <100W, but if the PSU must be 450W that really leaves you in a position to only get one high end GPU or two mid range GPU's. 2 mid range GPU's would be less efficient than one high end GPU; would use more power, generate more heat, cause more cooling issues, reduce system longevity. Then you have the CC2.0 vs CC2.1 issue (performance). Even with a good 450W PSU I would not want to use more than about 350W.

Two GTX470's (or 560 Ti 448) would require too much power, so better with one higher end GPU (GTX570 or GTX580). Here a GTX460's does ~half the work of a GTX470, so there is really no point to get two, well not for crunching.
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Message 23785 - Posted: 5 Mar 2012 | 23:01:42 UTC - in response to Message 23772.

Cat's don't change their stripes - avoid!
The PSU 'rating' is just that, a 'rating'. It's not the amount of power it will use or heat it will generate. The PSU is key to a good system. Invest in a good PSU and your system will last longer, use less electric and generate less heat.

Unfortunately, the PSU rating is the only item I have with much relation to the limit of how much heating my computer room can stand.


There are lots of sites that allow you to build on-line; select the components and the shop puts them together. I would say a local shop would build to spec for you.

HP allows you to select the components (within limits) and will put them together, and even install the resulting computer. I've been using them for the last few years, but they don't offer any with multiple slots for graphics boards. Looks like I need to check still more brands to find a good choice.


Not sure why you want more than one GPU? Usually one high end GPU is the better option. You would really need to specify a price range. These days a good system (32nm) doesn't use a massive amount of power <100W, but if the PSU must be 450W that really leaves you in a position to only get one high end GPU or two mid range GPU's. 2 mid range GPU's would be less efficient than one high end GPU; would use more power, generate more heat, cause more cooling issues, reduce system longevity. Then you have the CC2.0 vs CC2.1 issue (performance). Even with a good 450W PSU I would not want to use more than about 350W.

Mainly so I can try AMD/ATI-based graphics boards. It may be best to have both an Nvidia-based GPU board and an AMD/ATI-based GPU board, but avoid running both at once. The price range is less restrictive than the power limit.

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Message 23786 - Posted: 5 Mar 2012 | 23:44:48 UTC - in response to Message 23785.

Agreed with skgiven, don't put 2 GPUs with 450 W limit. Take a decistion NVIDA/AMD.
If you look at wikipedia you can optimize GFLOPS/ watt

Unfortunately, the PSU rating is the only item I have with much relation to the limit of how much heating my computer room can stand.

PSU rating is a good mesure, it's like having a stove in the room of that power, but remember, don't take it to the limit.
The only thing you can do in a situation like this is try some artificial ventilation as a fan or liquid refrigeration (too complicated unless you don't do that as a hobby do-it-yourself)
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Message 23787 - Posted: 6 Mar 2012 | 0:15:36 UTC

Sure, you can use a Dell. Don't be surprised if you hear a loud "SNAP!!" followed by a funny smell. Your lights will probably go out from the blown circuit breaker, but that's okay because the resulting fire will provide plenty of light.

Seriously, I wouldn't try to get too much out of a retail machine. Most of them seem to use the absolute bare minimum power supply, as well as other inexpensive components. That's how they get their prices so low and still manage to make some profit. You never, ever want to push the upper end of a power supply, even a high quality one. Using just one good high end video card will be reaching the limit of power draw for a 450W PSU when you take into account the CPU, chipset and all that. 2 GPUs on a 450W PSU is simply out of the question, unless you use low end cards that when combined are less powerful than one good higher end card.

If you really want to know about ATI video cards, they're very powerful but have poor support from the distributed computing world. They are fairly horrible in folding@home compared to Nvidia, and there are fewer BOINC projects that support them as well. Probably the only project I've seen where ATI actually pulls far ahead is MilkyWay@home. Bottom line, with your limited options you would probably be better off sticking with a nice Nvidia card for now.

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Message 23788 - Posted: 6 Mar 2012 | 1:05:20 UTC - in response to Message 23786.

Agreed with skgiven, don't put 2 GPUs with 450 W limit. Take a decistion NVIDA/AMD.
If you look at wikipedia you can optimize GFLOPS/ watt
Unfortunately, the PSU rating is the only item I have with much relation to the limit of how much heating my computer room can stand.

PSU rating is a good mesure, it's like having a stove in the room of that power, but remember, don't take it to the limit.
The only thing you can do in a situation like this is try some artificial ventilation as a fan or liquid refrigeration (too complicated unless you don't do that as a hobby do-it-yourself)


Both of my desktops already have adequate fans. Liquid refrigeration within the computers wouldn't help. It's the heat of the rest of the room that's the problem. I've looked into adding a window air conditioner to the room; it would take enough power that I'd have to shut down one of my desktop computers. The owner of the building isn't too friendly toward adding anther electrical circuit for the air conditioner.

I've tried leaving the window open in the winter. I had a trip to my doctor as a result.

I suspect that I'll have to wait for the next generation of Nvidia boards, or some lower level member of the AMD HD79xx family, to get much of an improvement.

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Message 23800 - Posted: 6 Mar 2012 | 13:36:55 UTC - in response to Message 23788.
Last modified: 6 Mar 2012 | 13:39:44 UTC

The paper-released HD 7850 and 7870 look like good GPUs, but are no use here, unless there is an app for them, and even then it would need to be tested and compared to NVidia cards for performance to know how useful they are. As their double precision is 1/16th of single, it will be poor at MW. Anyway until it's actually on the shelves you can't get hold of one and even then there needs to be a good driver for it, otherwise it's not worth buying for any reason, well other than door-stopper :)

The next generation of NVidia GPU's will turn up soon enough. Once they have been tested here we will know what to recommend. Again we don't know how these cards will perform, but I would expect power requirements to be lower relative to performance. Hopefully a mid range GTX600 will at least match a high end GTX500.

Even if you decided to go AMD, the best thing to do is wait for the competition to arrive, and prices to fall.
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Message 23813 - Posted: 6 Mar 2012 | 23:58:58 UTC - in response to Message 23800.
Last modified: 6 Mar 2012 | 23:59:50 UTC

Even if you decided to go AMD, the best thing to do is wait for the competition to arrive, and prices to fall.


Yes, waiting currently looks like my best option.

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Message 23820 - Posted: 7 Mar 2012 | 12:45:54 UTC - in response to Message 23787.
Last modified: 7 Mar 2012 | 12:56:01 UTC

Probably the only project I've seen where ATI actually pulls far ahead is MilkyWay@home. Bottom line, with your limited options you would probably be better off sticking with a nice Nvidia card for now.


BUT if you crunch for Moo or Collatz you will need an AMD card as the Nvidia is HORRIBLE by comparison! Each project seems to favor one brand of card or the other, PrimeGrid also favors the Nvidia. The whole point is figure out where you want to crunch using a gpu and then go out and get one, not the other way around. YES an Nvidia works at Moo AND Collatz, YES an AMD card works at PrimeGrid but the project has optimized their software for one type of card and is much better at it. More and more projects support the AMD/ATI cards and with the new OpenCL coding they all will.

The short answer is buy what you can afford, but chose wisely. Gpu's are like pc's...buy one today and tomorrow a newer, faster one will come out! Do you need to be cutting edge NO, but if you are too low on the scale you will probably not be as happy as you thought you would be. First chose your favorite project and buy the brand of card that it supports the best, ask the users which is better. There are plenty of users that will help you figure out how to make it faster once you get one of either kind, so don't let that be your limiting factor. For instance the AMD 7990 JUST hit the stores there are ALREADY users that have DUAL 7990 gpu's in machines running them! They are on the bleeding edge of technology and willing to share their trials and tribulations with the rest of us. In short there are plenty of users of both types willing to help if you just ask.

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Message 23821 - Posted: 7 Mar 2012 | 13:27:05 UTC - in response to Message 23820.

Each project seems to favor one brand of card or the other. The whole point is figure out where you want to crunch using a gpu and then go out and get one, not the other way around.

Of course! Since the programmed code needed to solve the equations is very different from one project to the other, as well as the hardware of each card.
Every project (most of them) have http://XXXXXX.XXXX.XX/gpu_list.php (GPUGRID, POEM) It's not 100% accurate, since it's affected by memory, the Mainboard, processor,...) but good to find the GPUs that works better. You multiply this coeficients with the prices and you got a good estimate of your card efficiency/€ in that project.
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Message 23834 - Posted: 8 Mar 2012 | 21:58:39 UTC - in response to Message 23786.
Last modified: 8 Mar 2012 | 22:01:10 UTC

If you look at wikipedia you can optimize GFLOPS/ watt

Maybe that huge table isn't the besto to choose a GPU. This is why I made this table. A simple one.
Here is the list of recommended GPUS. Take attention because Kepler is coming soon, and the prices would drop down.

************************** GF **** % GF ***** P ****** %P ***** Watts **** GFlops/W
GeForce GTX 590 ---- 2.488----100%----0,722----100%-------365--------6,8
GeForce GTX 580 ---- 1.581---- 64%----0,509------70%--------244-------6,5
GeForce GTX 570 ---- 1.405---- 56%----0,502------70%--------219-------6,4
GeForce GTX 480 ---- 1.345---- 54%----0,593------82%--------250--------5,4
GeForce GTX 560 Ti--1.263---- 51%----0,423------59%--------170---------7,4
GeForce GTX 470 ---- 1.089---- 44%----0,507------70%--------215---------5,1
GeForce GTX 465 ------- 855---- 34%------------------------------200---------4,3

Legend:
GF = Giga Flops = 10^6 Flops (floating-point operations per second)
P = most productive GPU models on different platforms

To read you must consider that complex code is very dependent on compiled instructions (flops, fast fourier transforms, size of matrix,...) and harware. That's the main reason why different pieces of code, and the same program optimized for a specific hardware, may run faster or slower in different hardware. This is why also FLOPS is not a good indicator since not every mathematical operation is a floating point one!

My advice. Don't look only at the price. If you plan a long crunch Watts is going to become more important.
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Message 23839 - Posted: 9 Mar 2012 | 13:37:48 UTC - in response to Message 23772.

I remember a rather old thread here saying that Dell computers should not be expected to last very long under BOINC usage.

I've seen too many Dell systems with board and PSU failures to ever even consider one for GPU crunching.

Does that also apply to their newer, gaming/high performance models such as the Alienware Aurora series? Those seem to be about the first I've found that provide sockets for more than one GPU board, without a PSU power rating much higher than needed to overheat my computer room.

Cat's don't change their stripes - avoid!
The PSU 'rating' is just that, a 'rating'. It's not the amount of power it will use or heat it will generate. The PSU is key to a good system. Invest in a good PSU and your system will last longer, use less electric and generate less heat.

If those are not a good choice, what other brands and models would you suggest for someone no longer able to build a home-brew computer, or even lift one, and interested in more than one GPU with a PSU rated no more than 450 Watts?

There are lots of sites that allow you to build on-line; select the components and the shop puts them together. I would say a local shop would build to spec for you.

Not sure why you want more than one GPU? Usually one high end GPU is the better option. You would really need to specify a price range. These days a good system (32nm) doesn't use a massive amount of power <100W, but if the PSU must be 450W that really leaves you in a position to only get one high end GPU or two mid range GPU's. 2 mid range GPU's would be less efficient than one high end GPU; would use more power, generate more heat, cause more cooling issues, reduce system longevity. Then you have the CC2.0 vs CC2.1 issue (performance). Even with a good 450W PSU I would not want to use more than about 350W.

Two GTX470's (or 560 Ti 448) would require too much power, so better with one higher end GPU (GTX570 or GTX580). Here a GTX460's does ~half the work of a GTX470, so there is really no point to get two, well not for crunching.



I agree SK, wouldn't have a Dell given and to put Dell and Suitable in the same sentence is bordering on banality.

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Message 23846 - Posted: 9 Mar 2012 | 21:11:48 UTC - in response to Message 23839.

It's almost always worth buying quality - things designed to last, rather than fail.

It will be good to see a few more GPU's to be introduced to the list.
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Message 24168 - Posted: 28 Mar 2012 | 8:10:12 UTC
Last modified: 28 Mar 2012 | 9:09:17 UTC

Ironic, my Dell Studio XPS led me accidentally to GPUGRID (01-19-2011), when Seti went down and no WU were available to crunch. So, in a way, a Dell can be sort of a good thing too. LOL

BTW, it’s paltry Dell Alienware 1792mb GTX 260-192 core, is still giving me a daily RAC of 85,000+, with a total credit of 28,263,758 (03-27-2012). Currently running at 68% fan speed, with a temperature reading of 62C. Capable of running a I4R48-NATHAN_FAX4, in less than 24 hours. Not to bad for a non recommended card and it’s downtrodden host, but YMMV

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Message 24220 - Posted: 3 Apr 2012 | 10:12:34 UTC

I am not using a Dell computer but I sometimes buy less expensive components to keep machines running. Yesterday, my GTX 580 ate my LSP Ultra 750W power supply. It was a great site to see and it smelled really bad. The LSP Ultra lasted for a couple of years but one about 30 days with my GTX 580. Overclocking that card is torture for a power supply.

Today, everything is up and running again on an OCZ 700W PSU. Who knows how long this one will last? It has 4 +12V power rails. I would assume the 6 pin PCI-E and the 6+2 pin PCI-E connectors are on different rails.

Good PSUs are expensive and most system builders use the minimum possible device. Guess my next PSU is going to cost a few more bucks but for now, we are running.

I kinda like torture testing my computers...

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Message 24222 - Posted: 3 Apr 2012 | 12:50:39 UTC - in response to Message 24220.

I would expect your OCZ 700W PSU to make it well past the second week :))

OCZ offer descent quality at affordable prices, making their parts ideal for repairs. Due largely to availability from my main supplier I tend to use Corsair PSU's but I occasionally go for OCZ when the price is right, and some of their newer PSU's have good specs. Always look at the AMP's and for MTF details. If the manufacturer doesn't list any, don't expect much. The best manufacturers offer good warranties.
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Message 24233 - Posted: 3 Apr 2012 | 20:11:55 UTC - in response to Message 24220.


Good PSUs are expensive and most system builders use the minimum possible device.


It's the one component you really shouldn't skimp on, yet people do it all the time with predictable results. A good predictor of whether you have a good PSU (besides brand name and specifications) is the weight. A good PSU should feel like a giant lead brick. If instead it has the approximate weight of a cotton ball, you are almost guaranteed to have issues with it.

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Message 24438 - Posted: 14 Apr 2012 | 23:26:41 UTC

I have several Dell's crunching. One XPS480 (no longer for sell) is running for 3 years now running 24/7 without problems and without extra cooling. Its a quad with running 3 cores for BOINC.

Other systems are Dell's as well and crunch normally at night and weekend as they have 800 to 1100Watt power supplies. All run without problems. I have only one not Dell and that one is causing a lot of problems.

So yes use a Dell.

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Message 24439 - Posted: 15 Apr 2012 | 0:20:10 UTC - in response to Message 24233.

A good PSU should feel like a giant lead brick. If instead it has the approximate weight of a cotton ball, you are almost guaranteed to have issues with it.

It's also true for motherboards and CPU coolers. I've recently bought a Gigabyte GA-X58-OC motherboard, and it's felt two times heavier and rigid than my previous MB (an Asus P6T WS Professional)

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